Unknown

Well stop and think. Is that a valid test to determine the fragility of OE's
..dbx files?
Are YOU really that stupid?.
"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
news:uE0Gv7hCJHA.5808@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> You really are stupid, aren't you?
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> http://grystmill.com
>
> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
> news:L8Xtk.18204$LG4.1681@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> That is shear stupidity. Run anything and yank the cord out of the wall.
>> Why specifically OE compacting?
>> "Alias" <iamalias@gmailREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>> news:g96s7o$doj$1@aioe.org...
>>> Unknown wrote:
>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>> frail?
>>>
>>> Want to find out the hard way? Open OE. Start compacting your messages.
>>> Pull the plug to your computer out of the wall while it's in the middle
>>> of compacting. Back up your .dbx files first ;-)
>>>
>>> Alias
>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>> dozen other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like
>>>>> OE. But it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it
>>>>> isn't in Help.
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>

Unknown

Is sheer OK?
"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23AN1PRiCJHA.4576@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> And what do shears have to do with it? <eg>
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> You really are stupid, aren't you?
>>
>>
>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>> news:L8Xtk.18204$LG4.1681@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> That is shear stupidity. Run anything and yank the cord out of the wall.
>>> Why specifically OE compacting?
>>> "Alias" <iamalias@gmailREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g96s7o$doj$1@aioe.org...
>>>> Unknown wrote:
>>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>>> frail?
>>>>
>>>> Want to find out the hard way? Open OE. Start compacting your messages.
>>>> Pull the plug to your computer out of the wall while it's in the middle
>>>> of compacting. Back up your .dbx files first ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Alias
>>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>>> dozen
>>>>>> other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like OE. But
>>>>>> it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it isn't in
>>>>>> Help.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>

Unknown

Any disruption can wipe out folders BUT, is that an OE program problem or
the compacting program?
Is all the problems caused by NORTON an XP problem?????
"Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
news:uKN9cdgCJHA.5012@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Yes. But it is because of the fragile dbx file system. AFAIK, e-mail
> scanning does not pose such a threat in other e-mail clients. (Not that
> you need e-mail scanning at all).
>
> As far as compacting, as Alias mentioned, any disruption of the process
> can wipe out entire folders. That is why we recommend working offline when
> compacting.
>
> I'm not picking on the big guy, just pointing out the facts. Like I said.
> I'm still using OE and have no plans to go elsewhere in the foreseeable
> future.
> --
>
> Bruce Hagen
> MS-MVP Outlook Express
> Imperial Beach, CA
>
>
> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
> news:giXtk.18206$LG4.2178@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> It is not OE as the article states. It (corruption) is caused by
>> NON_MICROSOFT virus scanning programs.
>> Amazing how MS always gets blamed for others poor programming. Pick on
>> the BIG GUY syndrome.
>>> It is a known issue for over a decade now.
>>>
>>> Viral Irony: The Most Common Cause of Corruption.
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/IE/...ion.mspx#EOAAC
>>>
>>> And:
>>> http://www.oehelp.com/OETips.aspx#3
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bruce Hagen
>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>
>>>
>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>> news:uoCtk.19437$jI5.3195@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>> frail?
>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>> dozen other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like
>>>>> OE. But it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it
>>>>> isn't in Help.
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Alias

Unknown wrote:
> That is shear stupidity. Run anything and yank the cord out of the wall.

T-Bird wouldn't even blink.

> Why
> specifically OE compacting?

Due to the fragile .dbx system, of course!

That said, you can lose power at any moment and those who have lost it
while compacting did not like the effects on their Outhouse Distress one
bit.

Course, if you have a UPS, not a problem unless something else should
happen while compacting.

Another test is to let your default .dbx files such as Inbox grow to a
size over, say, 400 MB and then do some compacting.

Alias
> "Alias" <iamalias@gmailREMOVE.com> wrote in message
> news:g96s7o$doj$1@aioe.org...
>> Unknown wrote:
>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is frail?
>> Want to find out the hard way? Open OE. Start compacting your messages.
>> Pull the plug to your computer out of the wall while it's in the middle of
>> compacting. Back up your .dbx files first ;-)
>>
>> Alias
>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important thing
>>>> wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a dozen other
>>>> things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like OE. But it needs
>>>> a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it isn't in Help.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>
>>>>
>

Alias

Unknown wrote:
> Any disruption can wipe out folders BUT, is that an OE program problem or
> the compacting program?
> Is all the problems caused by NORTON an XP problem?????

Norton has noting to do with the compacting program unless you use
Norton to scan email and then they will conflict and it ain't pretty.

Alias
> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:uKN9cdgCJHA.5012@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Yes. But it is because of the fragile dbx file system. AFAIK, e-mail
>> scanning does not pose such a threat in other e-mail clients. (Not that
>> you need e-mail scanning at all).
>>
>> As far as compacting, as Alias mentioned, any disruption of the process
>> can wipe out entire folders. That is why we recommend working offline when
>> compacting.
>>
>> I'm not picking on the big guy, just pointing out the facts. Like I said.
>> I'm still using OE and have no plans to go elsewhere in the foreseeable
>> future.
>> --
>>
>> Bruce Hagen
>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>
>>
>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>> news:giXtk.18206$LG4.2178@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> It is not OE as the article states. It (corruption) is caused by
>>> NON_MICROSOFT virus scanning programs.
>>> Amazing how MS always gets blamed for others poor programming. Pick on
>>> the BIG GUY syndrome.
>>>> It is a known issue for over a decade now.
>>>>
>>>> Viral Irony: The Most Common Cause of Corruption.
>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/IE/...ion.mspx#EOAAC
>>>>
>>>> And:
>>>> http://www.oehelp.com/OETips.aspx#3
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>> news:uoCtk.19437$jI5.3195@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>>> frail?
>>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>>> dozen other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like
>>>>>> OE. But it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it
>>>>>> isn't in Help.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>

Bruce Hagen

My last response.

It is a problem with how OE was developed. It has existed with all versions
of Windows and not related to XP. At least with XP/SP2, a copy of dbx files
is backed up when you compact. OE MVPs fought for that for almost a decade.
That said, any third party program is responsible to make their product
compatible with whatever MS develops. If Norton says their AV works with XP
and IE/OE, then it should work.

I don't know if the chicken came before the egg, but Windows programs come
before third party programs that /claim/ they are compatible.

Again. I am /not/ an advocate for MS. Spend some time in the two major OE
newsgroups. In the time I have been here, lost messages and or entire
folders is the most reported problem. Needless to say, if people backed up
OE, like they should any e-mail client, they could easily fix any screw up.

This is a post from today in the OE General newsgroup.

<QP>
I opened OE this morning and all my created folders under local folders are
gone. The only ones remaining are the defaulted folders of OE. Where did
they
go, and can I restore them? I had lots of emails saved in them that I would
like back. Thanks..
</QP>

It is a rare day that we don't see at least one post like this. Before
people started going to Vista and WinMail, or Windows Live Mail, it was
common to see much more than one such post every day.
--

Bruce Hagen
MS-MVP Outlook Express
Imperial Beach, CA






"Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
news:4O_tk.23261$N87.22253@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Any disruption can wipe out folders BUT, is that an OE program problem or
> the compacting program?
> Is all the problems caused by NORTON an XP problem?????
> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:uKN9cdgCJHA.5012@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Yes. But it is because of the fragile dbx file system. AFAIK, e-mail
>> scanning does not pose such a threat in other e-mail clients. (Not that
>> you need e-mail scanning at all).
>>
>> As far as compacting, as Alias mentioned, any disruption of the process
>> can wipe out entire folders. That is why we recommend working offline
>> when compacting.
>>
>> I'm not picking on the big guy, just pointing out the facts. Like I said.
>> I'm still using OE and have no plans to go elsewhere in the foreseeable
>> future.
>> --
>>
>> Bruce Hagen
>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>
>>
>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>> news:giXtk.18206$LG4.2178@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> It is not OE as the article states. It (corruption) is caused by
>>> NON_MICROSOFT virus scanning programs.
>>> Amazing how MS always gets blamed for others poor programming. Pick on
>>> the BIG GUY syndrome.
>>>> It is a known issue for over a decade now.
>>>>
>>>> Viral Irony: The Most Common Cause of Corruption.
>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/IE/...ion.mspx#EOAAC
>>>>
>>>> And:
>>>> http://www.oehelp.com/OETips.aspx#3
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>> news:uoCtk.19437$jI5.3195@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>>> frail?
>>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>>> dozen other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like
>>>>>> OE. But it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it
>>>>>> isn't in Help.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Gary S. Terhune

I thought about it a long time ago, watched several colleagues spend months,
IIRC, doing painstaking tests, I may even have participated in them myself,
can't recall. And yes, I can say that pulling the cord from the wall while
an OE folder is being compacted is a valid test of DBX fragility versus
other mail storage systems. Versus just about any other file type, for that
matter. Those same fellas still hang out in the groups, so if you want to
know *why* this is so, or *what* makes DBX files much more fragile under the
stated conditions, the OE groups are the place for you to ask. I recommend
you ask nicely. Or you can even claim that what we're telling you is BS and
somebody "here" (in the OE groups, remember) oughta go over "there" (here)
and tell them what's what!

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
news:GH_tk.23259$N87.22491@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Well stop and think. Is that a valid test to determine the fragility of
> OE's .dbx files?
> Are YOU really that stupid?.
> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
> news:uE0Gv7hCJHA.5808@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> You really are stupid, aren't you?
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> http://grystmill.com
>>
>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>> news:L8Xtk.18204$LG4.1681@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> That is shear stupidity. Run anything and yank the cord out of the wall.
>>> Why specifically OE compacting?
>>> "Alias" <iamalias@gmailREMOVE.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g96s7o$doj$1@aioe.org...
>>>> Unknown wrote:
>>>>> Never had a problem with it. Why do you say dbx file structure is
>>>>> frail?
>>>>
>>>> Want to find out the hard way? Open OE. Start compacting your messages.
>>>> Pull the plug to your computer out of the wall while it's in the middle
>>>> of compacting. Back up your .dbx files first ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Alias
>>>>> "Bruce Hagen" <Nospam@mymail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eQqnKgTCJHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> "Unknown" <unknown@unknown.kom> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OtBtk.19432$jI5.5277@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>>> Worse than OE?????? What's wrong with OE?
>>>>>> Specifically, the fragile dbx file structure is the most important
>>>>>> thing wrong with OE. They fixed that in WinMail, but screwed up a
>>>>>> dozen other things that /did/ work fine. Don't get me wrong. I like
>>>>>> OE. But it needs a lot of TLC thay many people don't do because it
>>>>>> isn't in Help.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Hagen
>>>>>> MS-MVP Outlook Express
>>>>>> Imperial Beach, CA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

PA Bear [MS MVP]

Don't bother asking "why" or "how" (which will cause an OE MVP's eyes to
glaze over), just do some searching of Google Groups. You'll find (tens of)
thousands of archived posts that contain variations on "Don't touch your
computer until the compacting process has ended!" or "Do not cancel
Automatic Compacting, should it occur, and do not attempt to close OE via
Task Manager or shutdown your machine if Automatic Compacting is taking
place."

<QP>
[The compacting] process can take several minutes and you should not attempt
to use your computer until it is finished.
</QP>
Source: http://www.insideoe.com/files/maintain.htm#compact

[http://www.insideoe.com is he OE user's Bible]

OE's been an odd, bug-ridden app ever since it was released over a decade
ago, and all further development was stopped in June 2006. We suspect that
the guy who wrote OE has been permanently confined in a lunatic asylum and
wearing a straightjacket for years.
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
DTS-L http://dts-l.net/


Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> I thought about it a long time ago, watched several colleagues spend
> months,
> IIRC, doing painstaking tests, I may even have participated in them
> myself,
> can't recall. And yes, I can say that pulling the cord from the wall while
> an OE folder is being compacted is a valid test of DBX fragility versus
> other mail storage systems. Versus just about any other file type, for
> that
> matter. Those same fellas still hang out in the groups, so if you want to
> know *why* this is so, or *what* makes DBX files much more fragile under
> the
> stated conditions, the OE groups are the place for you to ask. I recommend
> you ask nicely. Or you can even claim that what we're telling you is BS
> and
> somebody "here" (in the OE groups, remember) oughta go over "there" (here)
> and tell them what's what!
<snip>

PA Bear [MS MVP]

Don't bother asking "why" or "how" (which will cause an OE MVP's eyes to
glaze over), just do some searching of Google Groups. You'll find (tens of)
thousands of archived posts that contain variations on "Don't touch your
computer until the compacting process has ended!" or "Do not cancel
Automatic Compacting, should it occur, and do not attempt to close OE via
Task Manager or shutdown your machine if Automatic Compacting is taking
place."

<QP>
[The compacting] process can take several minutes and you should not attempt
to use your computer until it is finished.
</QP>
Source: http://www.insideoe.com/files/maintain.htm#compact

[http://www.insideoe.com is he OE user's Bible]

OE's been an odd, bug-ridden app ever since it was released over a decade
ago, and all further development was stopped in June 2006. We suspect that
the guy who wrote OE has been permanently confined in a lunatic asylum and
wearing a straightjacket for years. [1]
=================
[1] Source:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...d34a61101e99e9
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
DTS-L http://dts-l.net/


Gary S. Terhune wrote:
> I thought about it a long time ago, watched several colleagues spend
> months,
> IIRC, doing painstaking tests, I may even have participated in them
> myself,
> can't recall. And yes, I can say that pulling the cord from the wall while
> an OE folder is being compacted is a valid test of DBX fragility versus
> other mail storage systems. Versus just about any other file type, for
> that
> matter. Those same fellas still hang out in the groups, so if you want to
> know *why* this is so, or *what* makes DBX files much more fragile under
> the
> stated conditions, the OE groups are the place for you to ask. I recommend
> you ask nicely. Or you can even claim that what we're telling you is BS
> and
> somebody "here" (in the OE groups, remember) oughta go over "there" (here)
> and tell them what's what!
<snip>

Gary S. Terhune

Heh, heh... watching an OE MVP's eyes glaze over... heh, heh...

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"PA Bear [MS MVP]" <PABearMVP@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ezX1LDlCJHA.3396@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Don't bother asking "why" or "how" (which will cause an OE MVP's eyes to
> glaze over), just do some searching of Google Groups. You'll find (tens
> of) thousands of archived posts that contain variations on "Don't touch
> your computer until the compacting process has ended!" or "Do not cancel
> Automatic Compacting, should it occur, and do not attempt to close OE via
> Task Manager or shutdown your machine if Automatic Compacting is taking
> place."
>
> <QP>
> [The compacting] process can take several minutes and you should not
> attempt to use your computer until it is finished.
> </QP>
> Source: http://www.insideoe.com/files/maintain.htm#compact
>
> [http://www.insideoe.com is he OE user's Bible]
>
> OE's been an odd, bug-ridden app ever since it was released over a decade
> ago, and all further development was stopped in June 2006. We suspect
> that
> the guy who wrote OE has been permanently confined in a lunatic asylum and
> wearing a straightjacket for years.
> --
> ~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
> MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
> AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
> DTS-L http://dts-l.net/
>
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> I thought about it a long time ago, watched several colleagues spend
>> months,
>> IIRC, doing painstaking tests, I may even have participated in them
>> myself,
>> can't recall. And yes, I can say that pulling the cord from the wall
>> while
>> an OE folder is being compacted is a valid test of DBX fragility versus
>> other mail storage systems. Versus just about any other file type, for
>> that
>> matter. Those same fellas still hang out in the groups, so if you want to
>> know *why* this is so, or *what* makes DBX files much more fragile under
>> the
>> stated conditions, the OE groups are the place for you to ask. I
>> recommend
>> you ask nicely. Or you can even claim that what we're telling you is BS
>> and
>> somebody "here" (in the OE groups, remember) oughta go over "there"
>> (here)
>> and tell them what's what!
> <snip>